Q: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=6661
salt in the back on the counter top. : P
THE Inquirer has some tips on ATIs R350 and RV350.
The recently received first reiterates that ATIs R350 is built on a 0.15 micron process. ATIs mainstream RV350 is built on a 0.13 micron process.
What news is that both the R350 and RV350 taped all their manufacturing partner, TSMC, which did not do as good a job with their friend Nvidia.
The Nvidia NV30 super graphics VPU was scheduled to start using TSMC 130nm copper and Chemical Vapor Deposition (CVD) low dielectric process using Applied Materials Black Diamond CVD low-k product on the floor wiped with ATI. That would have been the first tape-out chip for a full series production using the most advanced casting process currently available.
Re:gt
i've had an ati for about 2 yrs now, have an 8500 in this machine i'm typing on, but i was not then nor am i now an ati fanboi. matter of fact i'm considering a geforce 4400 as my next purchase. looks to me like a good price/performer and i'm not concerned about directx9.
Re:Originally posted by: guy
how fickle.
it's amazing how many ATI fanbois there are now. i guess it was like that w/ 3dfx to nvidia.
anyway, i'm just glad that there is TRUE competition now. i don't think anyone can deny that ati is neck and neck (Not just in performance of latest card but overall) with Nvidia now.
I've been on the ATi wagon going three years now (since the original Radeon 32DDR in mid-2000).
Re:how fickle.
it's amazing how many ATI fanbois there are now. i guess it was like that w/ 3dfx to nvidia.
anyway, i'm just glad that there is TRUE competition now. i don't think anyone can deny that ati is neck and neck (Not just in performance of latest card but overall) with Nvidia now.
Re:cool, looks like ATIs getting ready to wipe the floor with nVidia.
Re:Originally posted by: guy
Actually i was wondering, do you think nvdia made tsmc tell them they would not produce an ati high end chip on that process until the FX was done? I was thinking they might have done something kinda underhand like that so they would still get an advantage.
Even if nVidia did that, I'm not sure that would stop ATi in its tracks as it uses other manufacturers like UMC.
Re:Actually i was wondering, do you think nvdia made tsmc tell them they would not produce an ati high end chip on that process until the FX was done? I was thinking they might have done something kinda underhand like that so they would still get an advantage.
Re:Originally posted by: guy
I hope nvidia doesn't go broke or crazy since it paid TSMC to figure out how to make 13 micron work, and now everyone else reaps the rewards lol.;)
LOL, nVidia isn't the only company which makes IC's 
It's not like TSMC was sitting around at .18 thinking "dang, i hope Geforce5 is .13 so nVidia can buy us new equipment!"
Basically, each chip is different. Also, there are NDA's in place which can (theoretically, but hardly ever in practice) prevent TSMC from divulging any "propretarty" tricks for running at .13 which nVidia discovers.
But it's not like once nVidia's chip has good yields, EVERY other .13u design will. While it's true that nVidia probably had to endure some birthing pains of .13 (or 130nano as the cool people say) if the design sucks, it sucks regardless of what process.
Re:Originally posted by: guy
Originally posted by: guy
Originally posted by: guy
Originally posted by: guy
What exactly do they mean when a card is taped out? Does it mean that the yields are sufficent to produce it en masse? Or does it mean that they just have one working card?
means they have the chips in silicon and not just on paper
No, it means they have completed the design of the chip and have send the design to TSMC to build. Generally about 6 weeks before they will see packaged parts back.
The term "taping out" comes from back in the day when the metal mask was actually designed using tape.
ah yes, basicly they have finished the reference design
No again. The term refers only to the completion of the design of the chip itself. It's when the design is golden, fully simulated, and sent to fab. Anand wrote an article about this, you should check it out.
The reference design is done by application engineering, and although they will have a preliminary design ready for when parts come back (a test board, so to speak), the final reference design will probably require some tweaks. PCB spins are much quicker than fab, so this doesn't take much time at all, probably a week or two to prove the design.
Re:Originally posted by: guy
Next year is going to be much more interesting for the video card market than it has for about the past 2 years. Prior to the Radeon 8500, and subsequent driver updates, ATi has never really posed any sort of threat to NVIDIA since it reached the pinnacle position in the video market. Now, there are two very competent players in the market offering excellent products keyed for different users. It will be interesting to see what happens.
I prefer ATI products, but I don't think that either one will be too far ahead of the other for quite some time. This will be an interesting battle of the video cards, and the consequences in the price of said equipment will be nice to see as well.
Re:Next year is going to be much more interesting for the video card market than it has for about the past 2 years. Prior to the Radeon 8500, and subsequent driver updates, ATi has never really posed any sort of threat to NVIDIA since it reached the pinnacle position in the video market. Now, there are two very competent players in the market offering excellent products keyed for different users. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Re:Originally posted by: guy
I hope nvidia doesn't go broke or crazy since it paid TSMC to figure out how to make 13 micron work, and now everyone else reaps the rewards lol.;)
For the millionth time, it's not quite that easy. Just because nVidia got X working doesn't mean all their competitors can easily build Y. Am I right?
Let's not forget, that if the GeForceFX is not WAY faster than the Radeon 9700 PRO, my guess is ATi won't even release R350 and instead will push towards a summer 03 release of R400. RV350 could be a different story, though.
Re:ATI's taping out means that those people who were waiting until February for NV30 might as well give up and buy Radeons now for little Timmy, or else wait a little bit into February and buy a Radeon 9900 Pro.
LOL!! I love it! ATI is going to be ahead of the graphics chipset world any second now and these guys are gonna have a price war like never before!
Re:I hope nvidia doesn't go broke or crazy since it paid TSMC to figure out how to make 13 micron work, and now everyone else reaps the rewards lol.;)
Re:Originally posted by: guy
Originally posted by: guy
Originally posted by: guy
What exactly do they mean when a card is taped out? Does it mean that the yields are sufficent to produce it en masse? Or does it mean that they just have one working card?
means they have the chips in silicon and not just on paper
No, it means they have completed the design of the chip and have send the design to TSMC to build. Generally about 6 weeks before they will see packaged parts back.
The term "taping out" comes from back in the day when the metal mask was actually designed using tape.
ah yes, basicly they have finished the reference design
Re:Originally posted by: guy
Originally posted by: guy
What exactly do they mean when a card is taped out? Does it mean that the yields are sufficent to produce it en masse? Or does it mean that they just have one working card?
means they have the chips in silicon and not just on paper
No, it means they have completed the design of the chip and have send the design to TSMC to build. Generally about 6 weeks before they will see packaged parts back.
The term "taping out" comes from back in the day when the metal mask was actually designed using tape.
Re:Originally posted by: guy
What exactly do they mean when a card is taped out? Does it mean that the yields are sufficent to produce it en masse? Or does it mean that they just have one working card?
means they have the chips in silicon and not just on paper
Re:Originally posted by: guy
What exactly do they mean when a card is taped out? Does it mean that the yields are sufficent to produce it en masse? Or does it mean that they just have one working card?
it means that they have thier first working silicon of the product.
Re:What exactly do they mean when a card is taped out? Does it mean that the yields are sufficent to produce it en masse? Or does it mean that they just have one working card?
Re:dammmn
ati is really on the ball this year
congrats to ati:P
Re:It's been known for a while (since COMDEX) that R350 had taped out and is suppose to be a .15mu product. Not much is known about RV350, but IF it's ready on the .13mu process, my response is whoa. That would mean that yields at .13mu were sufficient for a value product. It would also mean that ATi could rapidly move into the mobile market with a DX9 card. IF this info is true, I'd say nVidia has a tripple whammy on its hands: 1) ATi was able to do some damange with their .15mu parts (Radeon 9700/9500/M9), 2) ATi could have R350 ready to quickly erase any gains made by NV30, and 3) Despite all of what nVidia has gone through, ATi could still get a .13mu part to market at about the same time as nVidia!
This is fun stuff!
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